Hey - hope you can help me, I'd like to do this project right and avoid wasting my money.
I have a concrete block house with poured 6" cement slab roof. I would like to take a stab at insulating the master bedroom so I can lower my airconditioning costs and make it more comfortable.
The walls are concrete block (finished) and the ceiling currently is unfinished (I wanted to give it two seasons to check on leaks).
Right now the ceilings are 16 feet high I would like to put in a drop-ceiling around the 14 foot level to decrease the amount of volume we have to mechanically cool. I would also like to insulate all the walls - and then cover everything (walls and ceiling) with 12mm gypsum board (drywall)
All the fancy new materials aren't available yet here in the Philippines (like the Kingspan Kooltherm boards) (or if they are - i can't find the distributors)
So I was thinking I might just go to Wilcon and buy some 20mm PE Foam (double sided) and cover my walls (using metal studs), and then install a drop ceiling with metal studs and somehow affix the PE foam there as well (leaving a 2 foot gap before the concrete roof starts)... But I have a few questions if someone wouldn't mind sharing their knowledge...
- Is PE foam good to use for wall insulation? I can't find the R Value for it.. Is 20mm thick enough or should I do two layers? Do I need a vapor barrier? Should we just affix to the wall with something like liquid nails?
- Should I use metal parlings for the studs? and then affix the gypsum board to that?
- For the ceiling - how much insulation should I use? Can I stack 20mm sheets? How do we attach the insulation to the parlings and then the (heavy) gypsum board. Does it matter which way the reflective side of the foam is located?
- Is there a better type of insulation I should be using?
- My ceiling will have a 2 foot space between the drop-ceiling and the cement roof - do i need to put a hole in the wall and get a blower to suck the hot air out?
In short - would like to OVER insulate this space, and do it right the first time. My foreman will be directing the work, but I'll be doing the shopping - so would like to know what's best to get.
THANK YOU so much for feedback!
(2 photos can be found here)
giantpandarobot.com/temp/insulation/1.JPG
giantpandarobot.com/temp/insulation/2.JPG
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
you may want to research on EIFS. robinson's and sm malls are insulated this way.
if your house is detached, best to insulate from the outside to prevent heat from penetrating your concrete walls - that is, glue (using basecoat adhesive) 2inch high density and fire rated EPS boards to your external wall, and then also finish off the exterior side of the EPS boards with again the basecoat adhesive reinforced with fiberglass mesh. after which, you can finish off with stucco or elastomeric paint.
EIFS will let you save up to 40% on your airconditioning costs.
for your roof deck, your options might include applying waterproofing first then - sprayed pu protected by pu paint or also EPS boards then topped with 2inch concrete again.
for polyurethane waterproofing, please check out:
philpu.phpnet.us
i hope this helps.
denser stronger sealed & protected concrete
industry standard cost effective specifications
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
what's on top of the slab roof? reflecting and dissipating heat away from the conrete should help as well.
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Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
you may want to research on EIFS. robinson's and sm malls are insulated this way.
i hope this helps.
Cool - thank you SO MUCH..
Okay so I did some research on EIFS - unfortunately my house is already finished, and I just want to do this room - it would look VERY awkward to put an external insulation system on the outside of my master bedroom walls.. one wall faces the pool, the second wall is the kitchen (already have cabinets and tiling, third wall i could use EIFS as it's the back of the house (walkway) and last wall is the CR (of course already tiled).
I really need to find the best solution i can add to the inside of the room - it's plenty big 24' x 26' - so not worried about the space the insulation and gypsum will eat up. Just trying to find the best kind of foam to use for interior walls.
As for the ceiling - it's a 6" concrete slab, I had a bit of leakage the first year and my rather incompetent foreman told me he could put a 2" topper mixed with waterproofing agent and make the problem go away... he did so - but invariably the second year the topper cracked and have same issues... i will probably use the torch waterproofing method - as i've gone the elastomeric route and doesn't seem to work for me.
what i mean is that at 8" i don't really want to add another layer of insulation OUTSIDE and then top it AGAIN.. I have PLENTY of room inside the bedroom (16ft ceiling) and I'd rather insulate with a drop ceiling (seal off some of that space so i don't have to cool it.... hope that makes sense?
yes i looked into the spray insulation for the roof - it acts both as a waterproofing agent and insulation however i don't care what they say - it's not really a material you can walk on - and i use the roof deck for birthday parties and such... plus i plan to add a second floor eventually or maybe solar panels.
whatever solution i come up with - it needs to be interior to the room - giving me the highest R value available.
i'm also quite taken with using gypsum board - which i have experience with growing up - and i prefer to hardiflex or concrete board as you can hang pictures easily, patch easy, and it finishes so well.
??
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
may be you can use Styrofoam... i saw it at 99 mall in divisoria they apply Styrofoam out side of the building then finish it with aluminum cladding. but in your case you use it inside.. i think nothing beast styrofoam in insulation. just buy the fire rated one.
for the roof deck better put up a roof on top of your roof deck for water proofing. will save you alot of time than water proofing...
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
well, i didn't get as much feedback as i hoped on the forum... guess insulation isn't a sexy post.
going to go ahead and purchase 20mm double sided PE foam for the walls, use metal furrings, and cover with gypsum board.
for ceiling, going to install a drop ceiling 2' from the cement slab with metal furrings and sandwich 25mm PD foam inside of gypsum.
This setup will create a solid 'box' - also will tape seams of insulation and calk edges.
For lighting - will drop a 'ledge' around the room (not sure what it's called) and have pin lights descending from the ledge (totally separate from the the ceiling).
i'll post pics when complete.
thanks.
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
have you done your pre-shopping already?
have you computed how much you're going to spend on the 20mm pe foam + the studs + the drywall frame + the gypsum board? and then you'll paint the board, right?
how much per square meter are you going to spend?
have you even computed against one or two alternatives?
you might want to check out a telephone directory for the insulation suppliers.
and are you sure if the pe foam is safe - practically around your whole house? pe is plastic right?
still... good luck on your project.
denser stronger sealed & protected concrete
industry standard cost effective specifications
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
what would be the benefit to cost ratio
have you done your pre-shopping already?
have you computed how much you're going to spend on the 20mm pe foam + the studs + the drywall frame + the gypsum board? and then you'll paint the board, right?
how much per square meter are you going to spend?
have you even computed against one or two alternatives?
you might want to check out a telephone directory for the insulation suppliers.
and are you sure if the pe foam is safe - practically around your whole house? pe is plastic right?still... good luck on your project.
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
costs?
let's say that my master-bedroom costs me:
- 15,000 supplies (drywall, channel, furring, rivets, tape, putty, etc
- 10,500 for two rolls of PE 20mm foam
- 12,000 labor
- 1,000 for aircon guy to come move refit the aircon
- 8,000 paint and trim - but i'll leave those out as i would trim and paint the room regardless.
38,000
so if you're asking does it make financial sense? no idea. the master bedroom has the AC running 18 - 24hrs a day.. so if it shaves even 1,000p a month off my bill then yes it is probably worthy it (pays for itself in 3 years)... if it takes off more than that (2k) - 1.5 years.. my normal bill is around 16k a month...
the yaya runs her 2.5hp split aircon as well - so i should save on her usage as well.
if it keeps me cooler for less electric it will give me peace of mind as i despise the electric company.
😉
i'm planning to introduce more solar in my house in the next 5 years - so it has to be done regardless.
first thing to do is obviously look and plug any leaks around the house. second is to reduce waste (i turn out the lights, reduced one fridge in the house, unplug my appliances, am careful with pool pump and filter etc)...
i think insulating is a good thing to do - anyway - guess we will see after i get it installed and have a few months of bills.
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
i am guessing you need only to insulate two sides of your four walls right? plus the ceiling. (coz one wall is the kitchen and the other is the cr).
your ceiling is around 58sqm. i am guessing your 2 walls is anywhere from 25sqm to 60sqm.
at P46,500 for the size of your ceiling and wall, that's a steal.
that should be easy to recover - from the savings on your airconditioning costs.
if your insulation project nets you 25% effectivity, you'll recover the costs in a year's time.
again, good luck!
denser stronger sealed & protected concrete
industry standard cost effective specifications
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
Hello Ghost,
When I did my hometheater I used rockwool insulation on all walls and ceilings. Used 2 inches in the walls and 2 inches in the ceiling and another 2 inches of rockwool underneath the roof. I have also used foam strips in the windows and doors to avoid leakage ng lamig.
My hometheater is around 54sqm with 11 ft ceiling. I am using a 2hp panasonic inverter aircon, it really gets icy cold even if there are 15 people watching. Kahit pagpasok mo kinabukasan malamig pa rin yung room.
Medyo matagal nga lang palamigin yung room specially now na sobra init pero in your case na 24/7 andar ng aircon I dont see any problem. Got my insulation from Philippine Insulation in Paranaque near NAIA
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
Let us know in the future mate
i am guessing you need only to insulate two sides of your four walls right? plus the ceiling. (coz one wall is the kitchen and the other is the cr).
your ceiling is around 58sqm. i am guessing your 2 walls is anywhere from 25sqm to 60sqm.
at P46,500 for the size of your ceiling and wall, that's a steal.
that should be easy to recover - from the savings on your airconditioning costs.
if your insulation project nets you 25% effectivity, you'll recover the costs in a year's time.again, good luck!
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
Yo.... really? i have no idea regarding your insulation needs, but you have a 2.5 hp split type ac for your yaya? you could cut 2k per month on your bill if you address that in itself... just saying, you can do what you like but thats just crazy dude.
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
Yo.... really? i have no idea regarding your insulation needs, but you have a 2.5 hp split type ac for your yaya? you could cut 2k per month on your bill if you address that in itself... just saying, you can do what you like but thats just crazy dude.
that room was meant to be my home office - thus the aircon that's in there. i bought two 2.5 Samsung inverters, to be honest neither of them work very well. in the smaller room the temp can get down to 22. in the larger room the temp can only get down to 24 (and that's at 3am) normally sits at 25. not uncomfortable, but gone are the days when i had my old Chigo 2.5hp and would take it down to 16 and huddle under down comforter.
don't really miss that regardless - as electric is pricey.
i assume they're just undersized for the room, insulating the space and dropping the ceiling should help (i hope)
anyway - so yes, home office, now is yaya's room - but my kid is there too - and obviously it gets really hot - i could make them go without aircon to save 2k, but would u do that to your toddler? only issue i have is she seems to run it at night rather than 11am - 3pm, i still can't figure that one out... maybe she think i won't know if she's only running it at night. lol
this week they've installed all the metal furring, just waiting for the PE foam to arrive (on order). foreman was telling me for ceiling he would put it above the furring and tape it together around the supports (that tie into the concrete roof). i guess i had imagined it sandwiched between the drywall and furring so there would be one complete (and taped) uninterrupted layer of PE foam - but he's saying it can't be done. i guess piecemeal above and around the joists are the only way to do it? but i assume it will be less effective... what can you do?
Re: HELP! Proper way to insulate concrete structure
just a follow-up, the project was a complete disaster from start to finish. but that's how we learn. the room stays much hotter than it was before with the drop ceiling (heat can't rise?), and outside is ALWAYS 10 degrees cooler - i've no put a fan blowing in the cooler air. when the AC is on it does cool the room quicker, lasts longer, gets colder - but the AC is only on a few hours a day.
the contractor did the worst job imaginable on the drywall - you can see the screws, tape, mud - really really bad... they even screwed into the drywall 12,000p worth of trim - and not on the flat areas like you would expect.. when i caught them - he said you don't nail into gypsum board. lol
also they were sawing the gypsum board instead of snapping it - which leads to torn edges etc.
next year i will have the entire thing ripped out... (shrug). i was able to return 3 rolls of the insulation un-opened and thus saved 15k.. the only good thing out of the entire bad business.
