this is an offshoot of [thread=2561][COLOR="Blue"]this thread[/thread] where i made [COLOR="Blue"]this inquiry. creating this thread para di ma-hijack yung kabila.
got some inputs so far from sirs horge, gcavard and willyfernando and would like to continue discussion. maraming salamat mga sir!
have some follow-on questions, pasensya na if basic sa inyo (wala lang talaga ako mahanap na PH-specific info through google):
1. was going to ask @horge, how are the joists (pamakuan) fixed to the underlying concrete? later nabanggit ni @willyfernando na "they are expected to bond to the concrete surface and hold well using PVAC based glue" -- tama po ba na naka-glue lang ang joists to the concrete underneath?
2. ano ang dapat na spacing between adjacent, parallel joists? if kailangan ng mahabang joist, dinudugtong lang ba end-to-end ang joist lumber?
3. what lumber is good/ideal for joists?
4. regarding bridging ng joists (@horge's image from the orig thread):
ano ang dapat na spacing ng bridges? according to [COLOR="blue"]this web page (see table 1), parang every 4-6 feet of joist length, tama ba?
5. if walang sub-floor / underlayment, papaano sine-secure ang planks sa joists, using nails (only)? and saan ang pako, on every joist? i.e., ganito po ba (yellow x's):
6.@gcavard, tama ba, you don't use joists? that is, concrete slab, PE foam on top, then hardwood planks na? yung PE foam hindi ba spongy ang feel pag tapak sa floor (or anong klaseng PE foam ang kelangan)?
7. @willyfernando, ganu'n din po ang gawa ninyo, pero fibercement instead of PE foam? meaning: concrete then fibercement board on top, then planks?
Re: hardwood plank flooring repair (re-installation)
Usually the Wooden joists are nailed down to the concrete base and then concrete topping is poured just about less than the plank line. The gap leaves room for moisture proofing like PE sheets and also is expected to act as air space. We on the other hand, ask the contractors to pour their concrete topping a few millimeters away from the finish floor line based on the thickness of the FICEM (18mm) plus the wood plank itself. This leaves about 36-38mm working space for us. The Ficemboard is fastened by using special fasteners but you can also use counter sink screw and Tox just the same. The planks are glued and nailed temporarily but these (nails) will be removed eventually when the glue cures after 10 days. The nails act only as a hold down during the curing process. The reason for this is the nails react to the wood sap and water content w/c in turn leave those nasty black stains around the nail contact w/c eventually rot overtime weakening the hold on the plank and thus movement. As i've said with this you have to have very strong glue to succeed but if you manage to pull it off those nasty nail marks would never be a problem in fact, you'd hardly notice them since the nails are removed and the holes are plugged with fillers that are color matched with the wood. BTW, you must use PE sheets sandwiched between the Ficem and the concrete topping for ground floor installations. We use a special type of Moisture coating or sealer between the concrete and Ficem for upper floor installations but you can use commercial water/moisture sealers available.
Re: hardwood plank flooring repair (re-installation)
thanks for the reply willyfernando. in such an installation where concrete topping is poured, to replace joists i'm guessing kelangan tibagin yung concrete that was poured to free the joist?
also, again sorry if this is a basic question, do the PE sheets / ficem boards cover even the joists, as in they're sheets to form a complete layer on which to put the planks? or are they like strips that are laid on the concrete between joists, such that what the plank "sees" is a joist-ficem-joist-ficem alternation?
in my case it seems it's the joists that are problematic (possibly dry rot -- is there a way i can diagnose this w/o pulling out planks?), and i'm afraid they may have to be replaced. mukhang madugo nga ito as horge said.
Re: hardwood plank flooring repair (re-installation)
Your case is a very difficult one because you're weighing the practicality of these suggestions over the reality of your problem. Here are my insights:
1. The fact that you need to repair the existing set up is because there is an existing failure in the previous installation system.
2. The gravity of your problem may or may not warrant a change of system altogether because you believe that there might be a lighter resolve with the existing problem say change only the damaged portions.
3. In the case of floor slipper failure it is difficult to assess especially those portions that have been embedded in the concrete. There maybe some portions that look ok on the outside but in actuality are not from within.
4. Limit on the floor rehab budget. Magastos, madugo at mahirap pero kailangan ba?
I will leave the decision making to what applies best for you. If you take the road of FICEM substrate these are all you need to do:
a) Remove your old topping and floor slipper system to pave way for a new Topping.
b) Mark where your new topping will end so that when you install the Ficem on the new topping your planks will end right at the finish floor line but with a few millimeters extended for sanding and finishing.
c) PE sheets are sandwiched between the Concrete topping and the Ficemboard for ground floor installations.
d) The FICEM is installed in Whole sheet form not cut-out or joist therefore if the room size is for example 30 square meters then lay out around 10 sheets of 4ft. x 8ft. FICEM to cover the entire room and fasten them onto the concrete topping via the fasteners/screws I mentioned earlier. I usually lay out the FIcem in Herringbone pattern to disrupt the rhythmic movement of the wood.
e) Glue the planks the way I mentioned in my previous reply. After 10 days proceed with sanding and finishing.
There are no shortcuts to this process just decisions to be made. If you ponder on too many options in the end you will find yourself in the same dilemma. This is your chance to correct and hopefully end the problematic system that was. Good luck!:)
Re: hardwood plank flooring repair (re-installation)
thanks for the insights sir willyfernando!
you hit the nail right on the head (pun intended hehe) regarding the decisions and considerations. originally my idea was a repair, i.e., continue w/ the old system and just repair as needed. input ni sir horge is very useful there. i also appreciate gcavard's input since yung plank flooring namin are also from reclaimed wood (previous house owners ang nagpagawa, they got wood from old houses daw).
this job is definitely not a DIY one for me. i'm arming myself w/ info para pag naghanap na 'ko ng gagawa, i can hopefully screen them based on inputs i'm getting from the masters here hehe. so if meron kayong suggestions naman on what to look for in a flooring contractor for this particular case, please let me know.
anyway, since the repair will need for planks to be removed -- ano nga ba ang safest way to do this with minimal damage to the planks? [COLOR="Blue"]sir horge's suggestion seems logical to me, yung using a nailset to drive the existing nails out through into the joist beneath. anything else to look out for?
and then if may nasira nga na planks that need to be replaced, another concern is how/where to source replacement planks. suggestions welcome here as well...
