Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

I always asked about this, in fact Moji and I constantly talk about this. the general rule here in the Phils is the cost of materials multiplied by two is commonly used, but often just doesn't work. example: the materials you used can cost up to 12K and the build is very simple, the labor would be too high, if the materials cost is low but the work is intricate or demanding, then labor would be too low.
the method I try is materials x 1.1( with a 10% margin for error), estimated number of hours x xxx amount for labor, consumables (like sandpaper and rags and finishing which doesn't grow on trees :)) and transport which I always forget... btw, electricity and tool depreciation should be included in this one way or another...
the value of your per hour rate is very cloudy still, would be nice if we sit on it once so we can have a common factor. of course our per hour rate should be higher than those not using powertools...

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

I currently use the materials times two as the labor rate. But as Timber said, its a flawed computation. Up to now i don't know how much to charge the hourly rate. I for one is a bit slow to work so that is a problem.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

Somebody suggested this

(material cost + labor cost of a master carpenter) x 2 = our contract price.

This is somewhat same as Moji's computation. And makes thnsg simple if all or partial of the materials were provided by the client.

I think it just gets harder when it comes to extreme scale. the cost of a 12 seater solid wood table multi[plied twice is NOT a fair contract price for the maker... imagine heavy lifting and additional jigs

and if we were to make name plates from scroll saw.... twice the cost of the palo china is something like a siopao... hahahah

I would put a price floor. And if a project seems ridiculously cheap and easy and the price floor seems too high.. then i will just give it to the client for free. I'll treat it as promotion of my craft.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

how much does a carpenter charge for a whole days work (8hrs)?
I have come across 350 for the starting and apprentice and 500 for master carpenters, now if we divide that into 8 we get a P62.5 figure, but master carpenters don't normally have the powertools we use, the saw plywood in minutes, we do them in seconds. the don't use electricity and unfortunately, we do... p62.5/hr is an unacceptable figure in my opinion, I even believe p200/hr is relatively small for us but already high for some cases.
for me, the reasonable amount would be in the 350/hr to 500/hr rate depending on the item to be built, unfortunately, that also means losing a lot of clients.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

Have you guys ever figured your depreciation and overhead. These would be major costs since we use a lot of equipment. We can't base what we charge on our labor because I think even the most high skilled furniture makers in fully equipped shops probably do not get paid more than P100 an hour, which is probably a lot lower than we'd normally cost. So I always take credit on the personal satisfaction I get otherwise I'd always be in the red.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

very true Louis, we certainly do our stuff out of passion and pleasure, but we do have to earn too from it when we can. I have used so much time finishing sevral projects that if I compute the per hour rate I would be charging in the low 50's. the extra money I get is for tool maintenance, electric bill, tool upgrade, consumables and others, plus we do run risks too when we use pt's... it is a jugglig act for me that is why I often prefer to do things(projects) without an order and sell them when completed. custom work often cost more and we should earn out of it. I hated once when I had to do a custom work and the material I was using broke accidentally... this had and will happen to everyone, and unless there is room in your agreed price you will find yourself doing something for free or even paying more to do the commissioned piece.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

Oh I agree with you perfectly Timber. I was actually headed in that direction until I started building another boat for myself ... danger of being a boatbuilder I'm told. Anyway, the plan was my apprentice and I would build 13-foot sailboats just like mine which we would then sell to those that want to race with our fleet but do not want to build the boat themselves. As you guys might have noticed, I was not going to be building them myself, my apprentice would. Our deal is simply, I supply the materials and shop (of course) and he supplies the labor. When we sell a boat then we simply pay each other the cost of what we put in and then divide what remains as profit. This is a professionally designed boat by the way so one of our costs is also a license fee. The project is on hold though right now till I can get one of these big boats out of my yard.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

right know this is what ill be doing. Add all items up. plug in the time of a master carpenter and multiply by two.. THEN! deduct any items already bought by the company (stuff i didnt acquire) . I need to show breakdown kasi. nakakhiya kung wala. Also i agree with Timber's 200 Php an hour. however i dont think i can justfiy that to my boss.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

Sad thing is, most people would only price the final result as compared with the other furnitures that they see in the market. We have to face the fact that it doesn't matter to them:
- how hard the project was
- it involved designing not planning (not just cutting with a template and baisc assembly)
- electricity and tool depreciation
- safety hazards
- personal time taken away due to unavoidable scenario which we need to prioritize work
- the meticulous finishing

So if you all add it up, it would never be acceptable to anyone as a different furniture which would perform the same could be bought cheaper somewhere else. Yes, chipboard is way different than hardwood inmany ways but the fact is, most consumer is more of the "visual" side. Heck, they would even buy the cheaply laminated chipboard furnitures than the solid hardwoods bacause it looks better and they could even choose the color they want.

They should be the main market and not only the other people who appreciates and commisions custom work. Sadly in Philippine setting, this context does not apply and I think would never be. Being in a third world country where good wood is scarce and tools are expensive, most people would prefer the more readily available cheap ones. Even if we all know that those are just weak products wrapped in pretty clothing, it's just what the consumers want and sadly, what they could only afford.

As much as I want to answer the question I sadly could not. I would probably prefer finishing the work first and just as what timber mentioned, and price them after but that would be a slim chance for commssioned works. Probably it would be easier if you could ask them a budget then work around for more flexibility and foresight.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

trying to identify and knowing the demographic is probably the key. There are literally HEAPS of custom made furniture makers wherein we ourselves can easily compete with both finish and price. Not to mention better joinery.

Based on my calculation the furniture makers actually charge 2.5 times the material cost. We are actually still being generous.

But i have to agree, as far as commissioned works go.. its not much. Usually only among your circle of friends or family.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

Why compete in the flat market? Probably the Vertical market could be more lucrative. Custom projects billed on a case to case basis. Then maybe the designing, power tools et al will pay off well.

I could be wrong. It just crossed my mind that during our IT days we were into vertical market applications. Maybe it does not apply to woodworking.

Re: how do you guys charge for commissioned works?

Sad thing is, most people would only price the final result as compared with the other furnitures that they see in the market. We have to face the fact that it doesn't matter to them:

trying to identify and knowing the demographic is probably the key. There are literally HEAPS of custom made furniture makers wherein we ourselves can easily compete with both finish and price. Not to mention better joinery.

Why compete in the flat market? Probably the Vertical market could be more lucrative. Custom projects billed on a case to case basis. Then maybe the designing, power tools et al will pay off well.

I agree with all these statements, and I do believe like Jay mentioned that there is a market for what we do, unfortunately it is small, but there is. I went laughing once when Moji charged more for a simple item than the more complicated one I have made, but bottomline is both our customer went home with a product they wanted.
I believe that there are people who are aware of things like dovetails and the complex joints we do however small, and when they know these they are aware of the prices it entails. we just have to highlight our work more. that another reason why I like making my WIPs, that way they learn how their item is getting done and they learn why it is better that way....
hay naku, mahirap talaga, tapos babaratin ka pa... :p but all is well as long as both parties agree...